Category: News and Views
hay all:
Well a recent debate I was kind of caught in the middle of has sparked this topic and I'm rather curious to see the reactions to it. What do you all think of recent developments in the gaza strip? Were the israelis justified in their attacks or is it a case of overkill, literally. As for myself I tend to come down on the palistinian side, but I am far from knowledgeable about the entire thing so am soliciting opinions.
MJ
Well, if people feel the Israeli response to the rocket firing is justified then I would basically be allowed to respond equally. If someone, say, kept teasing me and breaking the windows in my house I should be allowed to kill him or her, his entire family, the neighbours next door and burn down his house and those of his friends, families, probably his township's school and power plant too, not to mention the nearest hospital, and this would clearly be the only reasonable response left to me to stop him breaking the windows in my house.
I donot believe in violence as a solution and I don't ever foresee myself killing anyone, definitely never for idiology. But if some organizatin killed my entire family because of a certain believe or nationality, even if I had had some sympathy with them before, I'd definitely do what I could to take revenge and I might turn violent. No one messes with my family or nvades my country while I idly stand by. If someone invaded the U.S. or try to wipe out, say, Florida, because there are too many gay people there (just as an example) don't you think the people of Florida would stand up for themselves, even those who may have felt it was a problem before?
Basically what I am hinting at is that the Plestinians are no angels, Hamas is doing itself no favors with the rocket firings but the Israeli response is sure to have increased the supply of suicide bombers exponentially and I can't blame them.
It's only a mattr of time till someone blows him or herself up in an Israeli neighbourhood, probably killin 20 or 30 people, someo of which may even have been sympathetic towards the Palestinian cause .. and we all know what happens next.
The only way these military tactics might work is if all Palestinians were wiped out (no, I am not recommending it) and, well, even then it may start an all out war with the Arab world (ad it should) .. at the end of the day this is completely needless violence, whatever the idiology behind it or grievances, and the conflict will never be solved with such one sided power and its silent support from western countries.
but on the other hand, israel was going to offer a 48 hour holt to the bombings, and they keep on firing rockets, which can land anywhere. Keeping students from school, people from work, basically holding them hostage is not right either. I wish the entire mess would just stop. I do agree violence doesn't solve anything, but they are not helping by just throwing rockets anywhere and whenever they want. Its a tough issue, glad I am not president!
firstly regarding the 48 hour seecefire. It didn't happen, the israelis refused it on the grounds that it would give the opposition time to rebuild. Meanwhile the US, as notable israeli allies have stood idly by and permitted this to occur, though in all reality would they piss off a nuclear israel? probably not. WHere do other islamic states factor into this or where will they do so? What about Iran, are they nuclear and will they use it if they are?
Has anyone out there seen the letter to Obama written by an isreali, I believe it was on the boards here about a month and a half ago. THis relates back to what post 2 said about sympathetic israelis, they do exist, and I agree that they might not stay so much so if rockets continue raining down. But I'm quite sure that if the death toll on eithe rside is totaled up, the figures would not show israel in a good light.
MJ
I agree they will look bad cause they will bomb and bomb, and yes someone should ask israel to stop, but someone should ask hamas to stop launching the rockets. I have been around for 44 years, and I vagely remember th 1973 war but remember much after that. I don't think peace will ever come which is sad mainly for the children who have to live and grow up with this type of violence. its really sad when you think about. just my thoughts.
I think as usual, Muslims are worked up because Muslims are being killed. Did they get so wound up when Russia and Georgia went to war? They didn't and why? There wasn't a Muslim side. It seems that as far as Muslims are concerned, killing innocent civilians is only bad when the victims are Muslims and the killers are nonmuslims.
If an organisation or country was rocketing my town constantly, I'd expect my government to protect me. If it didn't, I'd be very angry with it and demand that it was replaced with a government that would protect me.
It seems that the only way to stop Hamas firing rockets into Israel, is to stop Hamas existing. So that is what must be done.
The only way to stop al-Qaeda carrying out terrorist attacks against freedom-loving people who don't wish to be stoned to death because of the relationships they choose to have, or because they're not Muslims, is to stop al-Qaeda existing. I can't imagine that any US president will say that al-Qaeda should be tollerated, and that there should be no response that results in death if al-Qaeda kills Americans on American territory.
Neither side is completely right, neeither side is completely wrong. That's all I can take out of the clusterfuck that is the situation.
I think the whole conflict is just one part of a much longer conflict that has been going on from 1948 and before. I don't believe in violence from either side, but if someone invaded my country and took over land that was mine and my home, and I had to live in a refugee camp, I would be very angry also. Also, Israel has been keeping Palestine blocked so that it is hard for them to get food and other necessities. That could have spurred the whole thing about the rockets also, not to mention the nuclear weapons that Israel has can do a whole heck of a lot more damage than all of those Palestinian rockets. I am not saying that violence is good from Hamas or the Israelis, but I think that a nation under occupation would have a lot of angry people that would want to be violent. It doesn't excuse violence and it won't solve anything, though.
It was Britain's country in 1948. Poland has part of Germany now, but the Germans aren't firing rockets into Poland. Ukraine has part of what was Poland now, but Poland isn't firing rockets into Ukraine. Russia has part of Finland but the Finns aren't rocketing Russia. The US has what was land belonging to Native American tribes, so are Americans who are opposed to occupation going to give those tribes their land back? If not, perhaps they might start suggesting that the states stolen from Mexico be returned. Would you accept rockets from Mexico if it wanted that land back? I don't think you would. Australia and New Zealand are occupied and ruled by people who aren't natives, so can the natives there start firing rockets in the hope of getting back their land?
I don't think people would be as sympathetic to the Palestinians if they weren't Muslims, because they didn't express such outrage when big Russia went in to little Georgia.
to poster of 6 and 9.
1. Germany is not firing rockets into poland because free movement is permitted between the two countries with no restrictions on either side. If there was a distinct boarder and the population of one of these countries suffered as a result, I can guarantee you they would.
2: I do not defend either side, but tallying up the figures as news sites worldwide are now doing shows us clearly where justice lies. what was it? 5 israelis dead to 400 or 500 palistinians? Even if some of these palistinian forces were militants, there were still many civilian casualties. Israelis have refused journalists entry into the gaza strip in contravention of a supreme court order. Israel declares that there isno humanitarian crisis in gaza whilst the UN claims otherwise. I agree completely that the rocket fire must stop, but the well-equipped and heavily armed force that israel represents, pitted against the small and poor malicias of Hamas and this incursion has still been provoked? There is a problem deeper that what we are seeing. And as for ownership of the land, pre balfour declaration, exactly who was living there? Why should the palistinian people have suffered because the allies had a jewish guilt problem? Of course these modern day bloodbaths are a direct result of that. There have mean hundreds of documented abuses of israeli power in deckades past. Even some israeli people have protested against it, as in the Letter to Obama above. So that view is just a tad simplistic isn't it?
MJ
Regarding the religious undertones. If the Israeli Palstinian conflict were, say, between Palestine and Egypt, the U.S. would most likely not fund one side's weapons campaign find a mutually agreeable solution.
as well as blocking any UN resolutions seaking to mediate.
I think any inter faith conflict draws a lot of support from fellow believers, whatever the faith may be, since the conflict can be painted as a wider idiological struggle rather than argument over resources.
Sure the governments of bothc ountries have a duty to protect their citizens and sadly they're both still misled enough to believe violence is the answer. As I ponted out in my original post violence will only serve to increase the attacks, this is true on both sides. And part of the conflict is exatly that once nigotiations are done (if that'll ever happen) and the dust settles land ownership hs changed hands. That's why the Israelis are so eager to maintain their illegal settlements, hoping they will indeed become legal once some sort of long term peace has been achieved. Firing rockets over dispute that was solved years ago generally doesnot garner much support, but if your neighbour is invading your land now you got to act. Same as in real estate, if your neighbour encroches upon your land and you fail to make a legal complaint within a reasonable (7 years I believe) timeframe your neighbour establishes claim on the land he or she appropriated.
The free movement between Poland and West Germany didn't exist until the late eighties, but nobody on either side resorted to suicide bombings, rocket attacks, using children as human shields etc. It seems that only Muslims resort to such evil tactics. I never hear of Christians, Jews, Hindus or Sikhs in the news firing rockets at civilians, or blowing themselves up in restaurants and shopping centres. Apparently the people of Gaza are in poverty, but they've got money for rockets and what ever is used to make them. The amount of deaths in Gaza is due to the fact that Israel has better weapons, and better defences against attack. I wouldn't be surprised if Muslims would be happier if Palestinians were able to kill as many Israeli civilians as Israel can kill Palestinians.
If in one day, more people were killed by Muslim suicide bombers in say Iraq, Afghanistan, India and Pakistan, than were killed in Gaza by the Israelis, I bet Muslims would only be protesting against the killing that was done by Israel. It is rare to hear of Muslims protesting against murders committed by Muslim suicide bombers with as much passionately as they have when they protest against Israel, in fact they rarely ever protest against suicide bombings by Muslims. This to me serves as proof that there are Muslims the world over who believe it's okay to kill innocent people, as long as you're a Muslim.
And of course in the UK, Muslims have only recently and reluctantly started joining with the rest of us in commemmorating Holocaust memorial day. That's right, it was the Muslims, not the Sikhs, not the Budhists, not the Hindus, not the Christians, the Muslims who were the last to join in. And I'm not surprised.
firstly I think a bit of historical rectification is in order:
Re boarders between germany and Poland: you cannot compare the two situations as both Germany and Poland were pawns in the political struggle between communism and capitalism and controled by Russia and america respectively. As such, Israel and palestine are not at the wimm of any other nation and therefore rocket fire comes as a direct result of territorial disputes. So European examples hold absolutely no weight here.
secondly regarding suicide bombing: contrary to popular belief suicide bombing is not an islamic invention. It was pioneered by the japanese in world war 2, hense the name, kamikaze and later adopted by the Tammal tigers in Africa. These were both secular organisations, before the islamic militants took it over. I am not arguing in favour of these attacks, far from it, but to say that only islam resorts to such evils is far from correct.
thirdly regarding religion in politics: just as the irish used religion as a means of devision between one group and another, so has religion always been used to represent a political aim. It is not justified, but to blame muslims or catholics or jews for their ills is hardly accurate and is generally only done to oversimplify or as a misguided attempt to tar religion with the brush of political violence.
As for the killing of civilians, no one need look further than the west to see such sterling examples as Milei in the Vietnam war, the false imprisonments of guantanamo bay detainees and the truly impressive record of the Us millitary in Iraq. I have no intention of going into the Iraqi question here, my examples serve only to illustrate the point that when it comes to the killing of civillians, well, the west wrote the manual.
As to muslim protests over gaza. Your examples of Iraq, afganistan ETC should give you the answer you're looking for. Islamic states such as these do not involve themselves as much in the suicide bombing of islamic terrorists because they are already so thinly stretched by the political strife in their own lands. Ironically most of the muslim suicide bombing happens in those exact countries! As of now only egypte has come out in support of Gaza from the middle east, whilst other countries such as pakistan are two divided to deal with their own problems let alone those of others. This is a selfish and cinical political view, but what country's politics are not governed by a little selfinterest?
Israel has recently admitted that they had been planning this attack for the last 11 months, despite the seesefire that was signed just 6 months ago, so it shows how genuine their peace iniciatives truly were, does it not? And I see today that a gazan school was targetted, killing 30, justify that one. Also that one of the main gaza hospitals was ordered to be evacuated as there was talk of bombing it, putting civilians who were woonded an ddieing into a precarious position to say the least.
So, you were saying?
MJ
Very interesting discussion. I specially enjoyed reading the views of Wildebrew, Fabolous and Misty.bradley. As an American of Palestinian origin, I wish to add few points to some of the good points raised by the above mentioned posters, and try to set the record straight regarding the current tragic events in Gaza.
The current situation is only a small chapter of a very long and more complex saga of Palestinian suffering. I have posted on this topic and its general context in this forum in the past. This time I will focus on commenting about the Immediate political context of the ongoing Israeli massacres of the Palestinians in Gaza only.
The preparation for these massacres practically started in January 2006. It came as a result of an internationally monitored Palestinian elections, hailed at the time by more than five thousand international monitors as the freeist ever in the history of the region. Hamas, won 74 out of 132 seats in the Palestinian legislative assembly. According to the Palestinian basic law, the party that gets the highest number of seats in the legislative assembly, gets to form the Palestinian cabinet and the right to hold authority over all executive institutions in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. These Palestinian territories have been under Israeli occupation since june of 1967. Israel and the United states refused to honor and respect the election results on the claim that Hamas, the winner, is a terrorist organization. To the U.S. and Israel, any group or individual who supports the right of the Palestinians to resist the Israeli occupation is a terrorist. To the Palestinians, Hamas is part of the social and political fabric of the Palestinian society. As a result, the U.S. led an international economic, political and financial siege against the Palestinian people inside the West bank and Gaza with two goals in mind. The first was punitive, to punish the Palestinian people for electing Hamas, and the second to make life for the people unbearable so that they may rise up against the elected Hamas government. On its part, Israel arrested more than 50 of the members of the Palestinian legislative assembly. When the American-Israeli efforts to bring down the elected Palestinian government through embargo failed, They staged a cue de tat and removed Hamas government by force.
The Gaza strip is a strong hold for Hamas. Hamas have thus far opposed most of the American-Israeli proposals for ending the conflict and is viewed by the U.S. and Israel as an obstacle for peace on Israeli terms. The strength of Hamas in Gaza is not accidental. Roughly 80% of the Population of the Gaza strip are refugees or the descendants of refugees from 1948, the date of the creation of Israel as a state for the European Jews in Palestine. The vast majority of the population of Gaza can literally see, but cannot reach, their homes and farms over the barbed wires seperating the strip from the Palestinian areas they were forced out in 1948. Now these homes and farms have been taken by European Jewish settlers. Because the American-Israeli sponsored cue which tuppled the Hamas government failed to put an end to Hamas as a viable powerful, and popular Palestinian political movement, Israel imposed a very tight siege against the Gaza Strip from land, sea, and air. It practically turned the strip into the largest concentration camp in history, differant from the Nazi concentration camps only in name. Food, Water, Medicine, Electricity, Fuel were banned. Only when international outcries warning of human desasters did Israel allow for temporary and very limited supplies to reach Gaza. . To compound the effect of the siege on the people, Israel has augmented its policy with very aggressive military strategy of assassinating of Hamas leaders and cadres. In the process the Israeli siege and bombardments killed and wounded thousands of Palestinians. The purpose of the siege and the assassinations is to break Hamas's will to resist and its ability to oppose a settlement on Israeli terms. Hamas Reacted to the Israeli siege and constant Israeli attacks by infrequent, though admittedly ineffective, launching of home made rockets against the illegal Israeli settlements closest to the Strip. This is the immediate context of the current tragic events and Israeli massacres against the Palestinians in Gaza.
To frame the discussion as an Israeli natural reaction to defend its citizens misses the truth. Ilan Pappe, an Israeli professor at Exeter University called the Israeli approach. a slow genocide against the Palestinian people. Avi Shlaim, another Israeli Professor at Oxford called the Israeli claim to be exercising its natural right to defend its citizens a fraude. The massacres are not defensive, they are offensive with a clear political objective. The objective is to crush the spirit of resistance among the Palestinian people spearheaded at the moment by Hamas. The timing is not accidental. Israel chose this time to make advantage of the political vacuum in the United states, with a laim duck president in his way out, and a president elect without executive power as of yet is in waiting. Would Israel succeed?
I do not believe that Israel has any chance of success. In fact Israel is digging its own grave. The Palestinians made a historic compromise when they accepted Israel existance in november 15 of 1988. What did the Palestinian get in return? In the last 20 years, Israel confiscated more hundreds of thousands of donoms of Palestinian land, Built hundreds of settlements on confiscated Palestinian properties, and trippled the number of the Jewish settlers in the West Bank, killed and wounded tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians, and murdered hundreds of leaders and political cadres. In retrospect, the recognition of Israel's right to exist in november 1988 was a big mistake. Israel and Zionism can never be peacepartners. Zionism is a racist, exclusivist supremacist ideology, incompatable with peace and coexistence among peoples and religions. Israel can, and may in fact whipe out large portion of the population of Gaza, but it cannot crush the spirit of resistance among the Palestinian people. In fact the current massacres are exposing Israel's racism, and convincing the few Arabs and Palestinians who thought of a posibility of a peaceful solution, that they were wrong after all. The only viable solution for the problem is the dismantling of Israel as a Zionist state. In its place a secular democratic and modern state must be created, where Muslims, Christians, and Jews, Arabs and non-Arabs can live together. I believe that is what will eventually happen, all of what i hope for it will happen peacefully. The struggle with Israel is not a quibble over a piece of land, but an existential struggle. It is a struggle of an indiginous population, and a settler colonial state identical to the example of the white colonial project in South Africa, or the French in Algeria. The difference is that these two has failed and Israel has not failed yet. It is not only a danger to the Palestinians, but to world peace. The distruction of Israel as a Zionist base must be the goal of every person of conscience. This does not mean that I wish harm to the Jews, but If god wills the racist supremacist and exclusivist ideology claiming to represent the jews will be exposed discredited, and treated in the same manner as Nazism, Fascism, and other forms of racism. A lot of the world Jewry has begun to speak out against Zionism, and the difference between Israel and Zionism on one hand, and the Jews on the other must be always reeterated.
I will not say anything about the trash in some of the postings in this fantastic thread.
This CBS report that was aired in the first week of the Israeli Massacres shows only a small portion of the enormity of the Massacres. Watch it at this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA&feature=channel_page